Followup: Response to Chad
So far, my friend Chad has been the only one with the guts (or maybe time? 
) to respond to last night’s blog.
He brings up several good points that, while good, can still be simply resolved by an application of ideas I already put forth; namely, that the government is too involved in our lives.
The first thing Chad said that I’d like to emphasize is
There have to be rules and regulations when it comes to marriage because it’s a union that affects every aspect of your and your spouse’s life and has a lot to do with how we stand in the eyes of our government. Society has to come to a consensus with regard to the regulations because we don’t live in a separation of marriage and state country.
I’m not a scholar on the history of marriage, but I’ve read tidbits here and there. Are you aware that in our country, marriage used to be regulated solely by the churches (duh, right?)? In fact, the government didn’t start getting involved until blacks started intermingling with whites, and then the crazy Mormons came along and wanted to have multiple wives. “Society” couldn’t allow these types of aberrant, destructive behaviors, so laws were put in place to restrict who could marry whom. Then as people loosened up a little bit, rather than outlawing relationships, they flipped it around and began providing benefits to socially-acceptable ones.
Any being with a sense of justice would deem this type of behavior as completely immoral.
So, fast-forward a few hundred years: who is the current socially-unacceptable group desiring recognition? The gays. But since the laws are built in such a way as to condone and even support individuals desiring to be married, an allowance of gay-marriage would essentially mean a government sanction of something that many in the country deem as sinful.
I’m in agreement with everyone out there who doesn’t want the government to condone immoral actions. But the problem isn’t that gay marriage is or could happen, it’s that government is involved in it in the first place! In other words, if the government weren’t involved in the institution of marriage, this entire debate would be a non-issue.
My argument is essentially that the Church, rather than jumping on the anti-gay-marriage bandwagon, should be creating its own bandwagon of “the government is too involved in our lives.” What we are doing to gay people is exactly what other Christian sects did to the Mormons 150 years ago with polygamy. The only difference being that gay marriage is a sin, and polygamy is not.
But then, if you read and fully understand Doctrine and Covenants 134, specifically the verses I pointed out in yesterday’s post, you’ll realize that religious rights and wrongs should not be imposed on others not belonging to your religion.
The second issue with Chad’s response that I’d like to address is
I do think, though, that it is reasonable to be put to popular vote since it has so much to do with how our country functions
There’s this false notion in our country that we’re a democracy. This is actually something I’ve been meaning to blog about for a while. (I have a draft I started in August called “Newsflash: We don’t live in a democracy”…)
Majority doesn’t rule. The Founders of the country wrote in depth in the Federalist papers and probably elsewhere concerning the idea that majority/mob rule is evil, and must not exist in this country. Somehow over the past couple hundred years, we’ve levitated toward it. Article IV, Section 4 of the US Constitution states that we are to have a Republican form of government, and the 10th Amendment guarantees states rights. A long list of atrocities have occurred that have shreded our Constitution… anyway, I’m off on a bit of a tangent here. This is really a topic I’d rather leave for its own blog post later.
The point is that in our form of government, if we’re going by what the Founders wanted (and I think most Mormons hold the Founders in high esteem), they believed that majority rule would be acceptable so long as the rights of the minority were not infringed.
Because marriage is an unalienable right, it applies to all people. The rights of minorities should not be infringed upon simply because the majority doesn’t like what they want. The simple existence of laws regulating who can marry whom doesn’t imply a system that is just; on the contrary, regulating the relations of supposed “free” people is completely immoral and unjust.
As believers of God, the ultimate source of justice in the universe, we should be able to look through the facade of anti-gayness and recognize the true unjustice.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:06am
Very interesting. I wonder why Mormons are so concerned with this issue (assuming it isn’t just pure bigotry or homophobia)… is there a worry that the California Supreme Court decision which precipitated Proposition 8 would force the church to perform same-sex marriages? I don’t understand the church’s concern that it will threaten it in any way. I doubt a lot of church members will be looking for gay marriages. (I agree with your analysis of the “what about the children” argument from yesterday.)
For what it’s worth, I predict that, within our lifetimes, there will be a US Supreme Court decision barring state action like Proposition 8, citing either the equal protection clause or the liberty guarantee in the due process clause. It’s the logical result of allowing racially mixed marriages and same-sex sexual conduct behind closed doors (I see this as a good thing; Scalia and other conservatives have been freaking out about it for years).
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:14am
As far as the leadership of the Church is concerned, I think it’s precisely what you mentioned in your first paragraph — that legalizing gay marriage would force us to perform it in our churches and temples.
I can see how that’s not too much of a stretch, too, seeing how society and the government generally treat civil and property rights.
October 23rd, 2008 at 11:56am
Brandon,
There are a few things i would like to say. I just read both of your posts and all of the comments.
First, Isn’t it great that we live in a country (and are members of a church), where we can have any opinion we want without consequence?
As far as the church’s stance on prop 8 in california, there are lots of reasons why the church wants to keep the constitution the way it is. Is some of it fear of what our children might be taught in school? Probably. And your answer to not send your children to public school is irrelevant, since everyone is not afforded that luxury.
In Massachusetts where gay marriage is now recognized, the school system and the way peoples children are learning-is not the only downfall to this change in the constitution. As mentioned in a comment earlier, adoption agencies run and funded by religious organizations are being shut down due to homosexual legal couples wanting to adopt children from these religion based agencies. Same with doctors unwilling to perform all kinds of gender related surgeries. There are issues of equality on both sides and legally, a civil union and a marriage have the same rights. Homosexual couples have nothing to lose in this election. They have the rights now, and if Prop 8 passes, they will take the rights of those who are married.
Its really not an issue of gay-hating or bigotry as some people think.
Its a legal wording issue, that will change the way the family is viewed forever.
That being said, regardless of any member of the church’s understanding of the proposition-A modern day Prophet is the best defense we have. Not the constitution or rationality. I think that the way citizens of my home state and members of the church are heeding the counsel of the Prophet is great and should never be considered as “gay bashing”
October 24th, 2008 at 10:52pm
Recognizing that this is a difficult and sometimes complicated question for many to come to terms with, from both a moral and Constitutional perspective, I offer my perspective for what it’s worth.
I’m a person on the back side of middle age who has experienced much in life and is trying to endure and be diligent in my faith. I constantly try to both understand and practice what I preach, and I daily ponder what it means to be an active and faithful Latter Day Saint. Likewise, I try to be a good and responsible citizen of this country which I love and appreciate.
I have only one thing to say when all is said and done in discussing this particular topic of same sex marriage. Follow the Prophet!
The scriptures are a foundational and critically important part to the teachings and structure of the church and we are counseled to study them carefully, pray about them and apply the principles taught therein to our lives.
When Jesus lived on the earth, the people had many of the teachings of the early prophets and they followed those scriptures to the best of their ability, some better than others.
Jesus came among them and said, “Follow Me”. His admonition to follow Him did not supplant nor negate the veracity of the scriptures of the time, but He certainly added more depth and breadth to them as he expounded on and added to them through his example and teachings. He was personally ministering among the people and He was, and continues to be, the final authority.
When Joseph Smith was called to restore the gospel, he likewise did not negate nor supplant the canon of scripture that was available in that day, but again he added to it as directed by the Spirit into what we enjoy and look to today in the church as the Standard Works. He, as God’s Prophet, was the final authority at that time.
With each succeeding prophet in this dispensation, we have been given additional insight and direction as to the needs of the people and the church for each rising generation.
The Lord does not leave us alone to find our way in the dark. Nor does He leave us to question for long whether we are on the right road. That is, unless we show a lack of faith in Him by ignoring or discounting the counsel and direction of His living Prophet, which then darkens the vision of our eyes to the current pestilence as well as to the coming storms that always seem to loom on the horizon in these latter days.
God has warned us of these times of “conspiring men”. The scriptures are full of such prophesies, warnings and admonitions, always pointing us to the importance of being obedient to the Lord and His prophets.
The fundamental tests of life, which tend to monitor our willingness to be obedient, are coming more often and they seem to be getting more challenging.
Each prophet echoes the warnings of the past and reminds us anew each time the age old lies and conspiracies of the adversary take on a new form or add a new twist or dimension for an upcoming generation.
Are we listening to those warnings? Is our faith strong enough to accept them for what they are? Can we hear, not only the voices of the prophets of history, but more importantly, today’s warning voice from the one called to lead us through this current storm?
Are we willingly and gladly following the living Prophet, acting and being grateful for his presence and his counsel in our lives? That should be the first and foremost question to be asked and answered in the mind of any faithful LDS member.
We may read and sometimes interpret scripture differently as we study and exchange ideas between individuals. We may disagree on one persons interpretation but agree with another, or even question our own understanding at times.
There may even be the rare occasion where perhaps we may question if the church is in compliance with OUR understanding or interpretation of the scriptures. Especially at times of great social, political and spiritual turmoil where emotions run high and clear thinking can easily become clouded. We need to tread very carefully in such situations and consider the source of those feelings.
We need to recognize that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and that He is at the head of His church and the living Prophet is His mouthpiece.
Thomas S. Monson, as God’s living Prophet, is the final authority at this time to express God’s will for His people. He expounds upon the written word, clarifying if necessary. He brings the scriptures to life for our specific day, circumstances and trials.
That is why a loving, kind and all knowing Heavenly Father provided a living Prophet, to guide us in these latter days.
He’s there to speak plainly to us and point out the modern dangers of what is going on in the large and spacious building filled with laughing, spiteful people of the world. Each of them mocking and jeering as they make fun of our standards and try to make us ashamed and embarrassed to stand up for what we believe and what is right.
He’s there to help guide our footing so we can avoid slipping and falling into the river of filthy water of today’s “anything goes” society. Filthy water so vile that it would be unimaginable to our forefathers. So treacherous and all encompassing that it is nearly impossible to get out of once a person get’s caught in it’s swift current.
He is there to help us hold fast to the iron rod and to teach us to listen to the Spirit as it quietly and peacefully guides us along, as long as we don’t let go.
Do we have faith to follow the Prophet, or will we allow ourselves to be tossed and carried about with every passing, philosophical concept and selfish idea of man, perhaps even concepts and ideas that seemingly and innocuously appear to be mingled or justified with scripture?
We are at one of those defining moments in history when a person of the LDS faith must ask the question of him or herself; do I have a testimony of the true and sacred calling of God’s Living Prophet. When he speaks, even though my faith may be weak and I may have questions or not totally agree, do I muster the faith and show an uncompromising willingness to trust God and His servants and obey?
We may not be politically correct in our moral standards and in the things the Lord’s Prophet declares we must take a stand on. We may appear to the secular world to be unfair and even to some as unconstitutional in our approach to this whole counterfeit notion of “same-sex marriage”. But God has surely spoken through His Prophet, and He has spoken loudly, clearly and without revocation.
God is the final authority and President Monson is His unmistakable mouthpiece.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Trust and obey. Follow The Prophet!
November 3rd, 2008 at 9:05pm
I’m closing comments on this and the other gay-related post.