I’m tired of all the gay-bashing
Being LDS, the majority of my family and many of my friends support Proposition 8, the anti-gay marriage amendment in California.
The primary reason given is taken from the Church’s “The Family: A Proclamation to the World“, which is not technically scripture, but basically considered culturally as such: that “…marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage.” In essence, the Church and its members are taking their religious beliefs and legislating them.
I find this to be inherently contrary to other teachings of the church, which state that “We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.” (verse 4 of the same section is also somewhat relevant to this subject)
If this is like most legislation (”for the children”), and we are pushing to legislate morality because “children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage,” why are we not also pushing for anti-divorce laws?
And then I realized that’s only part of the issue.
A few weeks back I was sent a video from my family. Basically, a dad was arrested because he went to his son’s school to protest the fact that his child had been taught about gay marriage without his (the father’s) consent.
I responded to my family with the following:
“I am morally opposed to gay marriage. When I have kids, I will teach them that gay marriage is bad. I am not in favor of the state forcing me to teach my children what marriage is. In fact, you should all know me well enough to know that I am adamantly opposed to all forms of government coercion.
That said, what is the government forcing any of us to do if gay marriage is ‘legalized’? ‘How will gay marriage affect your family?’ — the question is asked in this video. It will only affect me as much as I allow it to affect me. I realize the government is ever-encroaching on our freedoms, but the First Amendment’s guarantee that ‘Congress shall make no law … prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]‘ is pretty explicit. The government can’t tell us what we teach our kids. The government can’t force us to send our children to public schools. It can’t force us to practice gayness. We choose what we do. And we choose what we teach our children. If the thing about public education that puts you over the edge is them teaching your children about gay marriage, then I have to wonder: have you not been paying attention to the quality of public education?
This video doesn’t make me want to outlaw gay marriage; it just adds to my list of reasons to not send my children to public school.”
I have to infer that Mormons are in favor of Proposition 8’s passage simply because it is easier to fight against than so many other things that are wrong in and with society. I don’t think it’s right that government schools indoctrinate children with things contrary to what their parents want them to learn. But the answer to that is not to deprive others’ rights, the answer is to fight against the real root of the problem — government coercion!
With the “for the children” argument thoroughly dissected, and the “God tells us it’s bad” argument dismissed, what else is there? The entire support for Proposition 8 hinges, and therefore falls apart, on these two premises.
October 22nd, 2008 at 1:02am
It really is a sensitive subject no matter how you dice is. No matter how you approach a conservative’s point of view it’s going to make them out to be a “mean person” because I (for example) am basically saying, “no you can’t do that, but I can” or at least it sounds that way. There have to be rules and regulations when it comes to marriage because it’s a union that affects every aspect of your and your spouse’s life and has a lot to do with how we stand in the eyes of our government. Society has to come to a consensus with regard to the regulations because we don’t live in a separation of marriage and state country. We could do something like that and say, “guess what, from now on everyone is responsible for themselves… You pay your taxes individually no matter who you support with your income ect.” then marriage would truly be nothing more than a testament of your love. Since that’s not the case and society wants to recognize the family as an institution, it affects all of us and laws have to be made… Some of those laws are very self explanatory (ie. you must obtain a license to be civilly married) and many others are based around what we deem as ethical and necessary for the common good. Why can’t I marry my sister (obviously hypothetical since I don’t have a sister), or my mom? Because we as a people know the affects it would have in the long run if children were born from such families… Oh.. Well I’ll promise not to have kids. Still, it’s better for the common good if we simply don’t allow it. If you really really really really REALLY love your sister, and just can’t stand the idea of not being together, then great! Live together! Be next door neighbors! Whatever! But you’re not going to get civil marriage, because society wont support it. Maybe I love two women and I want nothing more than to be married to both of them! Well, it’s not okay to be married to two women and that’s just the harsh reality as far as society is concerned. I’ll be honest, I don’t know how the amendment to California’s constitution was brought up. I do think, though, that it is reasonable to be put to popular vote since it has so much to do with how our country functions… To a certain degree, I think the church is backing this so heavily because it’s a legal and civil way we can proclaim what we believe. I also feel like they see this issue as a chance to stop a lot of other long term repercussions that we don’t quite understand.
October 23rd, 2008 at 6:14am
So are you gonna start a group on facebook? Haha.
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:16am
Ashley thought up the idea of making a Facebook group a week or so ago. That’s what gave me the idea to rant about this issue in the first place. She was going to call the group “Mormons who love gay people” or something to that effect. I’m hoping she’ll still make it at some point soon.
October 23rd, 2008 at 11:35am
Just because some LDS members are opposed to gay marriage doesnt mean they dont love gay people. That is the most ridiculous thing i’ve ever heard.
And fyi, changing the constitution to recognize civil unions as marriages doesn’t just affect the education system. If you watched more than just that one video you would know that it affects adoptions, it affects the way a doctor is able to practice medicine, etc.
Its nice and great to write a blog and say “i love gay people and the reason everyone is opposed to this is because they are too scared to teach their children themselves, is just ridiculous.
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:16pm
I understand that you do not believe in government coercion and you have indoctrinated Larson to believe the same way that you do. With that being said, I think you do have a legit argument about a solution to all things with getting the g’vt out of our faces. With that being said, that is just not practical at this current time and protecting marriage is something, as you mentioned, church members can do. Am I in favor of Prop 8? Without question. Do I agree with your statement that the government gets involved in far too many things? To a certain degree. But the question is, if we allow gay marriage in California what’s next? I hear so often the comparison of black’s and their civil rights. After that happened people were taught differently in school and our generation has a completely different viewpoint as our parents and especially their parents. Think about it. Does that mean that i think that we should go back to segregation? Not at all. All i’m saying is the reason i am in favor of prop 8 is not limited to the fact that it will allow people to teach about homosexuals in school. It is the fact that the government will get involved and allow them to get married in churches and sue churches if we do not allow it. If it were practical to not have the government intervene, that would be ideal.
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:22pm
… Who is ruth?
October 23rd, 2008 at 10:15pm
I agree with your philosophy that as long as you’re not hurting anyone, do what you want, and I also agree that the government should not intervene in personal matters. Obviously, since marriage is in the Constitution, the government is automatically involved, but we interpret according to the times do we not? and reinterpret over and over and over.
I see no difference between race, ethnicity or sexual orientation - it’s all the same, you’re born with it - and people have suffered under all these categories in this country and still do. Hey psychos, we’re all human. So get over it.
On the same token, we’re human, so we are inherently racist, prejudiced, fearful of something that doesn’t result in natural procreation, etc etc.
I’m not sure how to fix it. I assume people who want to make a difference bring in these propositions, since the government IS involved and there’s no way around it at the moment. I do know that I never want to and never will use my religious beliefs to regulate or justify or condemn another’s actions or preferences. It’s a personal choice for me and for anyone else what to believe in.
I’ve been taught that anything you do is between you and God (if you believe in one anyway). I still believe this.
October 23rd, 2008 at 10:23pm
Correction: Marriage isn’t in the Constitution (yet). I still keep thinking that amendment that marriage is between a man and woman is being put in. Hopefully it won’t ever be put in.
October 24th, 2008 at 9:28am
Follow the prophet
October 24th, 2008 at 3:47pm
No Ronnie, because Brandon has already thoroughly dissected and dismissed the “God tells us it’s bad” argument.
October 24th, 2008 at 3:53pm
Brandon, I also think that calling what LDS members are doing “gay-bashing” is bogus, to say the least.
It’s a play right out of the commie/lib playbook, and IMO you should try to stay away form it, as it speaks poorly of you.
Of course, more & more you seem to be lining up well left of center (this issue being a perfect example), so what do I know about your political beliefs?
October 28th, 2008 at 1:30am
Dissect all you want, when the Lord speaks we need to obey.
October 29th, 2008 at 10:17pm
Bran, if you knew anything about the state of California you would know that fighting gay marriage the the least “easy” thing we could be doing right now.
Protecting the sanctity of marriage is not a band-wagon that we as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or anyone else, can or are jumping on. It’s part of our duty as we follow the prophet, something as members of The Church, we’ve covenanted to do.
The prophets words are not arguments that we get to “dissect”. The Church’s support of Proposition 8 and its membership in the coalition to protect the sanctity of marriage is not something that hinges on or can fall apart on “premises.” Refer to Doctrine & Covenants 1:38.
I have a testimony of the truthfulness of this Church, therefore I MUST have a testimony of modern-day revelation and a testimony of the fact that anything the prophet tells us is straight from our Heavenly Father and personally, I wouldn’t dare go against that.
For more information on same sex marriage, Proposition 8, and the words of the Lord’s anointed on the subject, visit: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8
October 31st, 2008 at 12:46pm
Hey Ronnie, I guess it didn’t come across in post #10, but I was being sarcastic. I was actually agreeing with you & trying to state that if Brandon feels he can dissect & dismiss what God says, apparently (and sadly) he doesn’t quite get the gospel - yet. Looks like we his friends & family have some work to do.
October 31st, 2008 at 5:02pm
I believe the issue is much deeper than voting yes or voting no on proposition 8. Government has no place defining what is and what is not marriage. Marriage is an institution of God, not of government. Honestly, to even have government involved in it I believe is a perversion of the institution, but it being the law of the land its something we have to deal with. I do not believe marriage is something that should give a person economic benefits/deficiencies under the law. It should be strictly contained within a church that a person practices.
I believe a person should be able to practice their religion freely, and supposedly (although not really) we should not have government interference in that religion unless it infringes on the rights of another person (thus, you can’t just go out and kill babies, cause you know, that infringes on their right to LIVE). So if someone practices a religion where gay marriage is ok, who are we to say they can’t? It’s unamerican.
Obviously though, we run into a problem where a Christian church starts OKing gay marriage, which we know would be a perversion of doctrine. (Hello, here is the Bible, it says its bad, mmkay?) But I think to myself, so what? What they have as “marriage” and what we have are two totally different things. I personally believe instead of telling people “No you can’t get married”, we should be out preaching the gospel and showing “Hey, look what we have, its marriage in its fullness, and here are its principles.” By voting yes on 8, what are we really doing? “Protecting marriage”? I don’t think so. We’re merely protecting a perverse institution that has lost its fullness (since as Latter Day-Saints we know the fullness of marriage is only found through the sealing power, not through government) from becoming “more perverse” and forcing our political and religious beliefs on others as they were forced on us in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
So would I vote yes on 8? Probably, but only because I’ve been advised to by the Prophet, and you know, I don’t want Jesus being angry with me at the judgement. Do I agree that its going to solve anything? Absolutely not. There are far more things fundamentally wrong with the institution of marriage than this issue.
October 31st, 2008 at 5:24pm
Also, to those who think that Brandon is dissecting and dismissing the words of the prophet, tsk tsk! You have clearly missed the point. I don’t think anyone would argue that Brandon thinks marriage is important, and is something that should be between a man and a woman, but mostly that government interference on the matter isn’t the answer.
From what I gathered (and I may be wrong), Brandon’s real issue is not on whether or not gay marriage should be allowed, but on whether we should allow the government to baby us in every single aspect of our lives instead of letting us choose for ourself.
Also, on a personal note this whole proposition 8 thing and the way its been handled by many people (inside and outside of the church, and I’m not commenting on our leadership in Salt Lake, which I think understands the issue) has been ridiculous. There has been far too much emphasis on “PROTECT MARRIAGE RAWR MY WAY OUR THE HIGHWAY!” and not the reasonings behind it. Honestly, I can see why people think that mormons or christians are gay haters. For starters, a lot ARE. And second, I don’t think there is nearly enough “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” From members inside and outside of the church, I have been greatly saddened by a lack of compassion and understanding to our brothers and sisters who struggle with something that they don’t necessarily have control over (their feelings, not their actions). So many members of christian faiths have totally missed the point of “protecting marriage is important” and morphed it into “I hate gay people.” If this isn’t a prime example of apostasy, I don’t know what is. The whole thing is annoying and ridiculous. I go out of my way to deny requests to join facebook groups that are “YES ON PROPOSITION 8″ merely because when you navigate to the pages, the things being said on those pages are so far from the true spirit of Christ.
No, not all christians and LDS people are gay haters, but its definately a big problem, and it really saddens me to see people act so un-Christlike about this issue.
October 31st, 2008 at 5:28pm
Amen, Bob.
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:53am
The bottom line is that the government is already involved in marriage and they’re going to continue to be involved whether we like it or not. We can go on all day about government coercion and how they shouldn’t be involved in an institution like marriage. But if Proposition 8 doesn’t pass, that in no way eliminates government involvement. All it does is involve the government in a way that is detrimental to our belief system as members of The Church and endanger The Church’s right to define marriage as we see fit. Further research on the consequences of Prop 8 not passing will illustrate this better than I can. It’s clear from some of the statements made that the proposition is not being fully understood by some. http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8
Going on about gay haters in the Church and other Christian communities is pointless becuase nobody here falls into that category.
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:28pm
Bob, you are probably right that Brandon feels the gov’t shouldn’t be involved in marriage. I agree 100% with that. There are MANY things that the gov’t shouldn’t be involved in.
Since the gov’t is involved, we have to engage them & fight against it. A farmer who sees that a fox is already in his henhouse wouldn’t sit by & do nothing because he’s already in, he would go & save any and all chickens that he could. It’s the same principle here.
Now, allow me to take several of your points one at a time:
You said that Brandon isn’t dissecting & dismissing the words of the prophet. I said he is dissecting & dismissing the words of God himself. I base that on the last paragraph, where Brandon writes, “[With] the “God tells us it’s bad” argument dismissed, what else is there?” Feel free to explain the point I missed, but I stand by my comment in post 14.
You said, “There has been far too much emphasis on “PROTECT MARRIAGE RAWR MY WAY OUR THE HIGHWAY!” and not the reasonings behind it.”
What are the reasons behind it? Homosexual behavior is a sin. God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. That sounds pretty “my way or the highway” to me. If it’s good enough for God, why can’t it be good enough for me?
You wrote: “Honestly, I can see why people think that mormons…are gay haters. For starters, a lot ARE.
If you’re going to make an accusation like that, please provide proof. You said it, so the onus is on you. You saying so doesn’t make it so.
You wrote: “And second, I don’t think there is nearly enough “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” ”
You may be right, but again, what is this based on. Evidence please.
You wrote: “So many members of christian faiths have totally missed the point of “protecting marriage is important” and morphed it into “I hate gay people.” ”
You keep making all these inflamatory accusations. Back them up, specifically LDS people saying (by word or deed), “I hate gay people.”
I don’t go on facebook, but I don’t doubt that there are many comments there from LDS people that would serve to back up your claims. However, you seem to be portraying these comments as mainstream, and that therefore most Latter Day Saints are gay-haters. I say you are flat wrong. How many people do you talk to IN church houses (on Sunday) that “hate” gays?
All I’m saying is don’t insinuate that the majority of Mormons hate gay people. That’s not the case.
You wrote: “I have been greatly saddened by a lack of compassion and understanding to our brothers and sisters who struggle with something that they don’t necessarily have control over (their feelings, not their actions)”
Again, have you seen this in person, or just over the Internet? The church has treaded very lightly on this subject, but the bottom line is, someone who has these urges CAN go to counseling given by the church. Someone who has these urges & acts on them can also get counseling, but they also have to go through the repentance process. The world would call both the counseling and the repentance process homophobic, bigoted behavior. That’s because by the worlds “standards”, it is bad to deny your true self & is destructive. This is what the adversary has taught, and it is 100% contradictory to the gospel of Jesus Christ. So therefore, by the worlds “standards” the LDS church is a bigoted, homophopic organization, and all members are also.
I’m here to tell you, that’s not the case. The church is perfect. It’s members are not. The process of counseling and repentance that a gay person can go through however, is perfect.
November 3rd, 2008 at 6:02pm
Wow Ben, you completely took almost everything I said completely out of context and totally missed the point. Grats on that one!
November 3rd, 2008 at 9:05pm
I’m closing comments on this and the other gay-related post.